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Post Info TOPIC: 2021, brief journey into the CAC


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2021, brief journey into the CAC
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Started on my winter work on the 71.

Radiator is out nd being checked out for potential repair. 

new "F41 Package" for the rear is due tomorrow.

Confirmed the source of the occasional click/clunk from the rear (complete with Morse code message)



-- Edited by BLyke on Thursday 21st of January 2021 02:43:52 PM

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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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Hmmmm....maybe a loose bushing ???  laughing

BRIEF journey.... you are wandering into major frustration land.

Bruce, those bolts are going to be frozen in the sleeves. I have a couple tools you may want to use to help with that. I'll PM you.

 



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Mitch D.   River Falls, WI

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Thanks Mitch,
This will defiantly be a pain to do, but its 50 years old and in tough shape.doh
Guessing everyone who had done it has their horror storiesconfused



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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Bolts seized in the bushing sleeves is a huge pain to deal with. Chances are at least one of them is seized.

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Derek69SS wrote:

Bolts seized in the bushing sleeves is a huge pain to deal with. Chances are at least one of them is seized.


So far it would seem that "one might not be seized" is more likelyrolleyes



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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So this weekend I resorted to a specialty tool that is seldom used.cool
With the use this tool, the rear lowers are now boxed, the upper and lower control arms are painted, the new bushings installed, and the parts are ready to install.
Yep, and it even fits into my wallet, will this turn the 71 into a "checkbook car"?rolleyes



-- Edited by BLyke on Monday 25th of January 2021 09:37:48 AM



-- Edited by BLyke on Monday 25th of January 2021 09:38:06 AM

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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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Nope, checkbook car would be dropping it off for someone else to fight with and then paying the large labor bill for said fight.

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Mitch D.   River Falls, WI

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Lost in the 60s wrote:

Nope, checkbook car would be dropping it off for someone else to fight with and then paying the large labor bill for said fight.


 Yep, guessing they would charge a bit for the work?!rolleyes



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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Sometimes it's worth paying a little bit for those kind of jobs. 

I thought of you Bruce when removing the rear shocks on mine last weekend. So far I've broken 5 of 6 rusty/frozen bolts and nuts! And 3 of those were the shock top bolts that the nuts were deep in the frame pocket, almost impossible getting a wrench on them. angry  I usually install those with the bolt head on the top for just that reason.  



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Stan S.-Twin Cities Northland

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Agree with that Stan,
Cheryl likes to say sometimes "if you do the job yourself the tools (or perhaps parts) are free"!

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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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Sometimes a snapped off bolt with a loose nut, washer is better than frozen.
Often the Induction heater tool will work really well on those bolts, nuts.
Not much help with frozen sleeves/ bolts

Cage nuts spinning are my bane.
The last 68 I cut up required, Sawzall, torch, cut off wheel, and many choice words.

As long as you are not trying to save the old parts, anything goes.

Have fun,  beers
Karl



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"As long as you are not trying to save the old parts, anything goes."
That's the plan Karl, the all of the above approach will be used.

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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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Making progress, over 1/2 way on removal, glad I went with new arms



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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Does your car have a 12 bolt axle ??? Those parts are for an SS, with a 12 bolt, unless someone in the past put them in there. The upper control arm has the reinforcement where the diameter was ground down smaller for the larger 12 bolt housing.

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Lost in the 60s wrote:

Does your car have a 12 bolt axle ??? Those parts are for an SS, with a 12 bolt, unless someone in the past put them in there. The upper control arm has the reinforcement where the diameter was ground down smaller for the larger 12 bolt housing.


 its a 10 bolt (and shows as such on the build sheet), as I've said before, hard to know how it got to this point.

the cross brace is standard on Convertibles.

 



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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I didn't know the cross brace was on convertibles. I wonder if the reinforced control arm just got installed with the braces, assuming it was getting a 12 bolt ?

If you don't plan to keep that arm, I'll take it off your hands.



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Mitch D.   River Falls, WI

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From what I've read it was on all convertibles, and you can trust it if it is on line...Right?!

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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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Bruce, is your car a stick shift car?

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BLyke wrote:

From what I've read it was on all convertibles, and you can trust it if it is on line...Right?!


 Absatootly !!



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dashboard wrote:

Bruce, is your car a stick shift car?


 No Auto, 350/350



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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Guess its time for an update. The F41 update is all installed and torqued, so with it being 2/10 and 3 Degrees out, feeling good about being ready for spring.
Looking forward to the improved driving, as the bushings were shot and the sway bar should help. Pretty sure the remounting the rims will be a snap compared to the arms.
My radiator is supposed to be in the on deck circle, so perhaps I will know in a few days if it will get repaired or shift to plan B.



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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It will make a big difference in handling from my experience Bruce. 



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SShink wrote:

It will make a big difference in handling from my experience Bruce. 


 I think so, and the random clunking in the rear too. 

For the record, how many times have you done these?

Also, whet was the steering box you have used to upgrade?

Make/Year range?



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BLyke wrote:
SShink wrote:

It will make a big difference in handling from my experience Bruce. 


 I think so, and the random clunking in the rear too. 

For the record, how many times have you done these?

Also, whet was the steering box you have used to upgrade?

Make/Year range?


 The steering box upgrade would be a good thing to write up and put in he tech resources page.



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I think Stan has been buying used Jeep boxes and using adapters to fit the hoses. I have an upgraded box from Lares, that uses the original hoses. Probably more money upfront, but it's also all new inside with faster ratio Camaro gears. If I remember having driven the car 3 years ago, it was 2.5-2.75 turns L to L.

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Lost in the 60s wrote:

I think Stan has been buying used Jeep boxes and using adapters to fit the hoses. I have an upgraded box from Lares, that uses the original hoses. Probably more money upfront, but it's also all new inside with faster ratio Camaro gears. If I remember having driven the car 3 years ago, it was 2.5-2.75 turns L to L.


 So this is more of a direct fit?

What is the original of turns?

How much was the one from Lares? (and will it fit onto the new Morrison chassis, just want to keep my options openrolleyes  See my original build comments on what the car really needed))



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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You can have them rebuild and change the gears in yours or trade it in. The steering box is an absolute same, bolt in part.

The steering on my '66 was manual and about 12 turns...seriously, I had to make almost a half revolution to change lanes. Add in the big block and turning around at 6 pm in No. St. Paul was a bear.

I'm certain the Morrison chassis can be ordered to use the stock gear box... when is that coming ...nana

Forgot, I think it was $300, but that was 6 years, or so ago.



-- Edited by Lost in the 60s on Thursday 11th of February 2021 04:27:04 PM

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Mitch D.   River Falls, WI

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The used Jeep boxes are getting harder to find for cheap and without having a ton of miles on them now. I'd probably recommend a rebuilt box from Lares with the old style fittings.

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I forget the details, but there's also an issue with needing a later model rag-joint, and possibly drilling/reaming out one of the locator pin holes...(??)

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Summit has them for $310, but $125 core charge and you pay return shipping.
 
I would call Lares direct and ask about picking 1 up there and turn yours in for the core. That's how i bought mine.
 

10972 Steering Gear

Qty per Vehicle: 1

Power Gear;True 2.5 Turns Lock To Lock Using Camaro IROC Internals; Correct OE Turning Radius; Steering Coupling Assembly 201 Available Separately

 



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Mitch D.   River Falls, WI

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Thanks guys, not sure if there is going to be any more added to the to do list for this winter.
I'm looking at doing the front bushings and tie rods next year and thought "while I'm at it..." maybe the PS should be up graded.
The chassis comment is just from spending a lot of time under the car and saw a car show today where they just went with a new one, looks like a nice way to go.



-- Edited by BLyke on Thursday 11th of February 2021 06:30:01 PM



-- Edited by BLyke on Thursday 11th of February 2021 06:30:33 PM

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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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Lares is a very good product.
Some of the early/late issues are: fittings, seals or tapered flare, and upper shaft size, large or small.

Early boxes have tapered flare hose fittings, later o-rings.
The rag joint is not too big a problem to address, remember later GM PS boxes have the small upper shaft, and o-ring fittings.
Aftermarket kits are available for rag joint.

10-15 years ago i spent way too much time at u-Pull, and memory is fading.
Mitch is right on with the Lares promotion.

I have ordered a couple of Suburban remanufactured gears from Rock Auto recently.
EZ process, no hassle, direct shipped from Lares, next day delivery and simple core return.

Karl



-- Edited by more ambition than brains on Thursday 11th of February 2021 07:39:25 PM

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Yeah, those chassis look nice until I see the price 10-15k..doh

Urethane bushings in the front arms will make a LOT of difference in handling and steering response.

If you have power steering now it's, at most, probably 3.5 turns L to L. You really aren't going to gain much by going to the 2.5. The bushings will tighten the whole suspension up and take out the mushy feeling you have now.



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Mitch D.   River Falls, WI

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Bruce, I've quit counting how many suspension swap outs I've done on Chevelle's.  I have at least 4 sets of lower control arms sitting on my shelf that I've removed over the years, so I guess that's an indication?  cuckoo

I'm a big fan of the JGC swap, and have done it multiple times.  Here's a quick summary:

-Go to U-Pull with your tool kit and harvest the steering box from a '96-98 Jeep Grand Cherokee, INCLUDING THE BOLTS that hold it to the frame, because the original ones usually break in half inside the frame from rust damage.  I go online first and make sure they have some Jeeps in inventory, and of course I live 5 min. from the one in East Bethel, so go there.  There's one in Rosemount for the southern metro.  Yes, they're typically high mileage, but I've never had an issue with the box even if it has over 100K miles.  They used to be $25 but now are up to about $35-40 + the $2 entry fee to get into the yard to pull it.

-Buy a Lares 200 rag joint from a mid/late 70's Chevy pickup.  Usually run about $40-50

-Buy Borgeson fitting set 925122 that allows you to use the stock power steering hoses to convert from the JGC metric fittings

-Buy two new power steering hoses.  They're cheap and good insurance to replace the 50 year old ones.  Run's about $30 for the set.

-Remove the old steering box pitman arm.  Usually the toughest part of the install for me for some reason, as it's usually fused on.  Sometimes they just fall off though.

-Remove the rag joint (Disconnect the battery or the horn may go off on you since the rag joint is part of the grounding system!)

 -Remove the old steering box lines (Keep track of the high and low pressure hose orientation) and remove the box from the frame with the 3 bolts.  As noted, 2 of the 3 typically snap in half and need to be fished from inside the frame since they are mostly rusted away.

-Bolt in the new box using the bolts that came with it.

-Reinstall the pitman arm and tighten the nut with a BF breaker bar.

-Install the new rag joint.

-Install the Borgeson fittings and new hoses

That's it.  Can be done in a couple of hours and makes a huge steering improvement.  The turn cancel works with no issues when the steering wheel returns to home.

Here's an old article from Hot Rod that gives more info:  LINK TO HOT ROD ARTICLE  There's a million other articles on the internet about this swap too.

Well worth doing for less than $150, and I'll never drive a Chevelle with the stock steering box ever again!

 



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I bought one of the supposed "10:1" ratio Lares boxes, but returned it because it was 12.7:1 (same as what I was replacing)

Your stock PS box is 16:1, factory fast-ratio boxes (Camaro/Jeep/MonteSS/9C1/etc) are 12.7:1
Aftermarket boxes are available in 10:1, 8:1, and 6:1

For your use I'd recommend the 12.7:1
I put an 8:1 in my car, which is awesome on a typical 2nd gear autocross, but a little too quick for the highway, and really very sketchy at speeds over 130.



-- Edited by Derek69SS on Friday 12th of February 2021 08:51:43 AM

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Thanks for the reply's, and for Stan's detailed "how to" instructions, guessing he could do the swap with a blindfold on.
U-Pul-R-Parts has been running "Frozen Nuts" events lately, a day when everything is 1/2 price, so I may grab a jeep box just in case. but maybe it will be better to not freeze and go later and spend $20

Also wondering is the front end kit may not be the better next step to improve the driving and get it to less of an "old car feel"?
I do have Power Steering, so Mitch makes a good point.

"If you have power steering now it's, at most, probably 3.5 turns L to L. You really aren't going to gain much by going to the 2.5. The bushings will tighten the whole suspension up and take out the mushy feeling you have now." Mitch

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BLyke wrote:

Thanks for the reply's, and for Stan's detailed "how to" instructions, guessing he could do the swap with a blindfold on.
U-Pul-R-Parts has been running "Frozen Nuts" events lately, a day when everything is 1/2 price, so I may grab a jeep box just in case. but maybe it will be better to not freeze and go later and spend $20

Also wondering is the front end kit may not be the better next step to improve the driving and get it to less of an "old car feel"?
I do have Power Steering, so Mitch makes a good point.

"If you have power steering now it's, at most, probably 3.5 turns L to L. You really aren't going to gain much by going to the 2.5. The bushings will tighten the whole suspension up and take out the mushy feeling you have now." Mitch


As we know, the suspension parts (including steering) all work as a system.  So, any suspension parts you replace in the front end will help get it back to spec and a 'tighter' less 'old car' feel.  I'm sure the front end kit will make it ride better, and changing out the steering box will make that improved feel work it's way into the steering wheel. 

All I can say about the steering box is that after replacing it, I found the next weakest link in the suspension immediately after having a better 'feel' to driving the car.  Both will be good changes even if you do them separately in my experience. 



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I'd do both while it's apart. Fresh bushings along with new balljoints & tie rods will definitely tighten it up.

Throw a 1-1/4" sway bar on it, and a 12.7:1 box and it will feel like a whole new car.



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Derek69SS wrote:

I'd do both while it's apart. Fresh bushings along with new ball joints & tie rods will definitely tighten it up.

Throw a 1-1/4" sway bar on it, and a 12.7:1 box and it will feel like a whole new car.


 Yes, just do everything at once will save time. The large sway bar will make a huge difference in keeping the car level while cornering. THAT could be added later, along with the quicker ratio steering gear without much effort or removal of parts already replaced. Those 2 items could spread out the cost over another years budget.

IF the tie rods, idler arm, center link, pitman arm all check out tight, they can be re-used and replaced later without disturbing the control arm rebuild too. If you want to keep some control of cost, rebuilding the control arms is the first step and will bring a very noticeable difference in ride and handling.

I have Global West parts in both the '66 Chevelle and '67 Camaro. I like that they are greaseable. Some brands still aren't.

This is a link to the upper set. https://www.globalwest.net/chevelle-el-camino-malibu-monte-carlo-upper-control-arm-bushings-del-a-lum-1964-1965-1966-1967-1968-.html

Lower set  https://www.globalwest.net/chevelle-el-camino-malibu-monte-carlo-stock-lower-control-arm-aluminum-bushing-1964-1965-1966-1967-1.html

Offset upper shafts, for better caster/camber adjustment.

https://www.globalwest.net/chevelle-el-camino-malibu-monte-offset-shaft-upper-a-arm-1964-1965-1966-1967-1968-1969-1970-1971-197.html

They do sell it all as a kit, but with new ball joints. They don't specify the brand of ball joints. I only use MOOG problem solver and these DO appear to be them, but I would call to confirm that. If the ball joints are anything else, especially chinese, I would not get this kit and get the 3 sets. IF the b/j's are MOOG, the complete kit is a pretty good deal

https://www.globalwest.net/chevelle-el-camino-malibu-monte-carlo-econo-track-kit-1967-1968-1969-1970-1971-1972-drag-race-street.html



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Mitch D.   River Falls, WI

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My thoughts on doing the sway-bar at the same time is that you only have to buy sway bar bushings once.

70-81 Z28/Trans-Am 1-1/4" bars are a cheap upgrade. Still can find them for $50 occasionally... I might even have an extra one.

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Thanks once more, you guys are a treasure trove of information and experience.
Several years a go I did a front sway bar upgrade.... added a bushing (for the one that was completely gone) and replaced the other side. really cut down on the loud thump on the passengers sideheadscratch



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

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Adding something else to the winter list, ordered a new grill to replace the brittle old one.
Pretty sure it can be mounted by springrolleyes



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BLyke wrote:

Adding something else to the winter list, ordered a new grill to replace the brittle old one.
Pretty sure it can be mounted by springrolleyes


If you don't have plans for the old one Bruce, I'll buy it from you for wall art. Thanks 



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Stan S.-Twin Cities Northland

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SShink wrote:
BLyke wrote:

Adding something else to the winter list, ordered a new grill to replace the brittle old one.
Pretty sure it can be mounted by springrolleyes


If you don't have plans for the old one Bruce, I'll buy it from you for wall art. Thanks 


 It will need some gluing but you are welcome to have it, NC.



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

1971 Malibu Convert

1951 Pontiac Chieftain Super Deluxe Catalina Hardtop 



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Did a bit of "Stanatizing" on the washer hoses.
Didn't exactly get it right last spring.

Referenced the wrong diagramdoh



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

1971 Malibu Convert

1951 Pontiac Chieftain Super Deluxe Catalina Hardtop 



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Going to convert to a 6 cylinder?

 

cenuniv

 

Amazing how much information is out there to help on these cars.

 

Katl



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More ambition than brains,

If you have more than 5 of anything, best to stop counting!



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more ambition than brains wrote:

Going to convert to a 6 cylinder?

 

cenuniv

 

Amazing how much information is out there to help on these cars.

 

Katl


rolleyes It was just he best of the diagrams I had found last year on the washer hoses, didn't think to look in the back for a special cowl hood version. 

The push this year is not like last year, when springing the car form the CAC Jail was the top priority. Going back and tweaking a few more fine details.

Must be catching a bit of spring fever,  Actually dreamed i was driving the car and was totally impressed with the improvement in its handling  from the F-41 kit

BTW is that a new non-traditional spelling of your name, Katl?

 



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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

1971 Malibu Convert

1951 Pontiac Chieftain Super Deluxe Catalina Hardtop 



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At one time spelling was my strong suit, now not so much.
Even my own name.

banghead

Karl



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More ambition than brains,

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more ambition than brains wrote:

At one time spelling was my strong suit, now not so much.
Even my own name.

banghead

Karl


 "show preview" and check spelling before punching the "Submit" button. I've about worn out my "back" button correcting my screw ups before posting...doh



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Mitch D.   River Falls, WI

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Some Assembly Required

1966 Chevelle SS 396 M20

1970 Chevelle SS 396 M20



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So is goes, was looking at Stan's Heavy Chevy and realized the grill on his is the look I want. no SS or Bow Tie.
Ordered the trim even though it is non-functional and the money could be going towards other things.
Soo... as long as I'm at it, found a super deal on the lenses so ordered them too.

Lots of opinions on what the "standard 1971 HC" front trim was, thinking about painting my head light rings as in the 3rd pic.

-- Edited by BLyke on Monday 1st of March 2021 11:49:08 AM



-- Edited by BLyke on Monday 1st of March 2021 03:53:42 PM

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Bruce L. - Lakeville MN

1971 Malibu Convert

1951 Pontiac Chieftain Super Deluxe Catalina Hardtop 

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